anticipo dell'accension 102cc dr ( ape 50 )

[soriano]

buongiorno,
in primo luogo, ecco la mia presentazione :chiamo ben, sono francesi, voglio riparare uno " ape 50" , tipo " country cross " (2001).
c'è nessuna tribuna francese, o specialista francese, così se potete aiutarlo….
Voglio installare un cilindro di 102cc DR sul mio " ape 50 " ;.

Devo cambiare la sincronizzazione di l' accensione originale (anticipo dell'accesion) (originale angle 19°)?
Se sì, cosa il grado sceglie?
Quale distanza (posizione del pistone) corrisponde all'angolo di sincronizzazione (per 19° o nuovo)?

ho un'altra questione: C'è una guarnizione, tra il cilindro ed il cilindro di testa?

ho provato a tradurre in italiano ed in inglese, ma se volete me rispondere in inglese (o in francese!! ) preferisco per le tes espressioni tecniques!!!

Molte Grazie

ben



hello.
First , my presentation : I'm Ben , I'm french , I want to retore an ape 50 from piaggio ,type " country cross " (2001) . Doesn't french forum , or french specialist , so if you can heilp me ....
I want to install a 102cc DR cylinder on my " ape 50 ".

Must I change the original ignition timing (19° ) ?
If yes , wich degree choose?
Which distance (position of the piston) corresponds to the timing angle (for 19° or new)?

I have another question : Is there Gasket , between cylinder and head cylinder ? ( obviously no )

I tried to translate into Italian and English, but if you want to answer me in English (or French!! ) I prefer for your tecnic expressions!!!

Thanks very much .

[olandese volante]

hi ben, the place to pose your question is probably piaggioape.de.
they have a big section on the 50 cc models.
the ignition timing has to be changed and there is a gasket between the cilinder and the cilinder head.

[soriano]

hi olandese volante ,
Thanks for your answer . And thanks for your link (Iwill see later)
For , my first question , a german APE seller said that not obliged to change the original ignition (19) ,but i see on vespa website that :
"Before we go any further here are the correct timing angles for most smallframe engines:-
50cc : 19 degrees BTDC
90cc : 19 degrees BTDC
100cc 17 degrees BTDC
125cc (VMA1 and Primavera) : 24 degrees BTDC
125cc Primavera ET3 and PK : 20 degrees BTDC
130cc Polini : 16 degrees BTDC
135cc Malossi : 17 degrees BTDC" link: http://www.ape50.co.uk/
So , .... I don't understand....What is the good value

For my second question , I buyed a kit (cylinder ,piston and head ),there is for the cylinder-carter , but no for cylinder-head cilinder. On shopline of german sellers there is no gasket for sale....

Thanks again
Ben

[olandese volante]

checkout on piaggio ape .de
as you already noticed the engine is like the vespa 50 cc.
in germany they like the 50 cc .
you have to log in to see something there. but some speak english so you will find what you need, i use a polini 102 on my vespa and the ignition and final drive are different from normal, i do not remember any more how many degrees as i altered it 20 years ago.
i know that the old people in italy change only the cilinder (on the ape)to have some more torgue to go up the mountain they have hardly more speed.

[soriano]

Ok ! .... I'm going on your recommanded forum .
Thanks very much for your explications , I start to understand (torgue /speed) ...
Ben

[aronne]

Hi, if your kit is DR you can keep the original angle, because is a very quiet kit (if the kit is Malossi or Polini, it is different..)

About the gasket: there isn't the gasket because the cylinder is made of iron and the head is made of alluminio, so the gasket isn't necessary (even in the original Piaggio kit there isn't the gasket)

[soriano]

Thanks very much , Aronne !!!
It's exactely what I need like explications !!
For my knowledge , when you wrote "quiet" what it mean ?
What is different for others cylinders with the same displacement(100cc) (polini, malossi ,;;)?
May be that depends on the height of combustion chamber ?
Thanks again ,grazie mille ,merci encore.
Ben

[aronne]

Hi, Malossi is the fastest kit for vespa, but the cylinder-piston has a short life. DR has the worse performances but it is eternal like the Piaggio kit. Polini is in the middle. For the various kit it changes the number of holes, the chamber head, the piston, the compresison ratio ecc.

So if you use a 75 DR you can keep the original angle 19 because the engine is similar to the 50cc piaggio. Actually with the 100 DR the right angle would be 17, however I think that you can keep 19 without problems. The important thing is the carburation: use a rich petrol mix to avoid the detonation (greate max gigleur of the carburettor for having more petrol than air)

Good luck!

[soriano]

hi, aronne apparently you are like me : from the night , when i see your answer's time ! thanks for your attention .
I will tying with te original angle first (it's more easy!) , but Ithink that will better with the specified angle (17) to use the maximum performance of the engine .
Do you think that (17)is better for the speed or acceleration ? For my motocycle ,when you change the advance (a few) ,it will reflect on ratio speed/acceleration (if you have more speed ,you have less acceleration torgue) ; and conversely ).
olandese wrote :
"i know that the old people in italy change only the cilinder (on the ape)to have some more torgue to go up the mountain they have hardly more speed"
That may be an explication...?
Ben

[olandese volante]

the old people do not change the primary reduction, the exhaust or the carb.
they all put on the 102 polini and thats it as this way the carabinieri do not hassle them.
i have the advantage of a dutch license plate.................. ;)

[soriano]

Ok ,I see....
The story is interisting , i didn't see that on that angle...!
In france you are a gangster if you change your cylinder but no for the exhaust or carburator.
Indeed , that is " useless " to change only cylinder , it's better for the engine to use the good configuration , for optimal performance.
in any case, if the engine functions by changing the cylinder simply (without regulating the ignition), it does not function as well as possible?…
Or then 2 angle 'degree 'difference does not change anything ?

[olandese volante]

as aronne already tried to explain, the need to change the ignition point depends on when the ports open and close.
as the dr kit is "quiet" "eternal" it means the porting is more or less equal to the original (the diameter is the big difference).
ignition changes will only give a "rounder" running not huge differences in power.
as with most old two stroke designs the exhaust is the part to look at.
when using a big cilinder have a good look at jawa 250 twins.
they made the better exhaustpipes ....of course your ape can only be used on a track after all these modifications ;)
if you just want to go fast , create problems for cars and become a " real criminal " you may want to put in a 125 rotax 22 HP :D

[soriano]

"create problems for cars " ,Idon't understand ? For the moment , I annoy the cars driving at 30 km//h !!!
I want just to go a little fast ! I don't want make like "the transporter " (french movie) !!!
Now , I will can start my modifications , because , if I understand , I have all that I need :A 102dr , An exaust leo vinci , a carburator 19 , a primary reduction ,
and especially diagrams, and your precious informations: " Not need to change the advance (timing ignition), except if I want that my engine lives longer .
...so I need "little mechanich" only !

I can be will also change the clutch...

olandese volante , I'm regisred now on your link : piaggioape.de
Thanks for your information , the forum is very big , I think there's a lot of informations but it's not easy to translate in deutch heading and instructions , and the search 's tool is strange.But I will retry ....
For the moment I want to finish this topic on this forum , it was more easy for me , because this forum " rounder " function , it's accessible and simple .
So thanks very much everybody for your attention and your help .Ben